Q & A........for the autocross newbs.....

[Feedman]

Ok, I will be the first to admit that I don't know much about autocross events.

I think we could all use some help on better understanding the tips/tricks/hints of this strange new world.

So if the autocross Veterans of this board would like to post some insight as to what makes it tick, I think we all would be very appreciative.

So hit up the reply button, and lets see what happens... 8)

[Feedman]

ok, looks like I have first dibs....*rubs magic 8 ball*

1.) Could someone kindly explain the different classes and what types of vehicles are allowed in each class.

2.) Also, would are some of the better suited cars for autocross?

3.) How can a person prepare for an event, and what "mods" should they consider...?

Thanks.... 8)

[Davis Silver Sti]

ok, looks like I have first dibs....*rubs magic 8 ball*

1.) Could someone kindly explain the different classes and what types of vehicles are allowed in each class.

2.) Also, would are some of the better suited cars for autocross?

3.) How can a person prepare for an event, and what "mods" should they consider...?

Thanks.... 8)

I'll shoot.

1. There are a ton of classes. If you go to http://www.swvrscca.org you will come to our chapter's page. From there you can take a look at the results from any of the past autoX's, which will give the class and type of car entered. It can be a bit confusing on classes. There are dozens of classes and then there are modification of each one. I run in the A-stock class. If I were to mod my car some more it would put me in SP (Street Prepared) If I were to go further I think I'd end up in SM (Street Mod). At the Clarksburg event there were a bunch of Civic's Si's that had engine swaps and other mods...they were put immediately into SM. (There were lots of newbies at that event) Kurt could tell you more about the various classes of Hondas.

2. Better suited cars....hmmm, well it really depends. You could put a top driver in a moderateely prepared Neon and they would kill the event...yes, a Neon, and would beat Vettes, Stangs, Firebirds, RX-7's driven by decent drivers. Miata's do well too...especially well prepared ones. I've been beat bad by MX-6's and Ford GT Probe's when I was racing my Alfa Romeo in G-stock in San Diego. You'll see all type of cars (refer to results page) driven by various types of drivers.
Few months ago a guy in a fairly new Blue STi, begining driver, wrecked his car because it was just a bit too much for him.
It really helps to have an insructor or seasoned vet to ride along for the first few runs. Of course we all walk the course before the event which helps a ton.
To answer the questions....EVO's, Z06's, Firebirds and a 911 are top dogs. You'll hear FTD throughout the day....Fast Time of Day.

3. Best mod is to show up with an open mind to learn. Seriously that's it. Don't get sticky tires, roll-bars, suspensions drops, roll cages, upgraded turbos, and other engine mods becuase you won't go faster. That comes much later.
Another guy in my class believes that upgrading springs, and roll-bars will make his times drop. That's not true at his beginning level.
One of our top runners (Bill G. in a crazy fast modded RX-7) explains it well when he says that(paraphrase) "its best to learn and improve on a stock car. When you mod a car, it just takes alot longer (many races) to get all the settings right, and many times these settings will just make you slower." (He has been doing this for many long years, as well as a seasoned track racer)
Good stuff to bring would be plenty of water, sun screen, running shoes and your eyes and ears to learn.

When I track my car at Mid-Ohio, the instructors there also talk about modding a car in slow increments. Beginners should not have coilovers, sticky tires, trick brakes and fat engines. Its much harder to learn when you have all these other advanced things on your car and you don't know how to use them properly yet. When I did lapping in Europe, we used mostly stock Peugeots...mush easier to learn on those than a full blown race car. I did that route and later on did some testing for a race team in their prep'd car...lots of fun and made it much easier. (same thing goes for Pro rally racing..except you need to start with gravel tires:0)

One really needs to show up to see how they like it. You'll either love it or see it once and not want to go back. (I think Robbie told me that once..)

Its not everyday that you can go crazy on a course with timing equimpment and people to pick up cones for you...give it a shot!

Davis

P.S. Kurt and Robbie, I know I left stuff out...

[Kurt_W]

Step one: http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/

Read up ;)

Answers:
1.) That site will explain the different classes better then we could in any reasonably lengthed post.

2.) Best suited cars depends on personal driving ability, style and preferences. Generally, the lighter, lower and more powerful the car is, the better it will do. . This is a gross generalization, but it’s generally accurate. An optimum car would be something like a Lotus Elise. However, and old Lotus Elan would likely give the Elise a run for the money. It really depends on the driver and his/her style. It’s easier to say which cars wouldn’t be good then which would be. For example, a Chevy Impala would be a poor choice.

3.) How to prepare: make your car SAFE! You have loose stuff that doesn’t need to be in there? TAKE IT OUT! You have a big honkin stereo? Chuck it!

In all seriousness, you need to make sure your car is in sound mechanical shape. If there are loose parts anywhere on or in the car, make sure they are secure or removed. Unsecured stereo boxes are a hazard for everyday driving, and if they shift during radical maneuvers on a course it can seriously compromise the handling characteristics of a car. Make sure your brakes work well. No gushing leaks. No missing or broken lugs. Bring a helmet if you have one…most regions have loaners but who really wants to wear one of those?

As for mods, I agree with Davis for the most part. The best classes to run in when you’re a rookie are the stock classes. For example, this weekend will be my first event ever in a SM car. I will be last in my class, in fact I will likely be slow overall dispite having one of the better power to weight ratios on the course; lack of experience in the car and the class will be the primary reasons though lack of driver ability comes in a very close third. The only point I disagree with Davis on is tires. Don’t show up with crappy all season tires. Something like Azenis are great. They are cheap and readily available and they excellent traction for the money. This is also a safety issue, as if you get a little hairy with the poor traction all seasons, things can get ugly. There is however a second vantage on this. If you have really good tires on the car and it gets away (you really shouldn’t get to this point at your first autocross, or even a couple following events, but stranger things have happened) then the car may be unrecoverable. Engine and suspension modifications will only put you in classes that you are likely not competitive in (at this point.)

As Davis says, come with an open mind. Expect to do poorly and don’t be disappointed if you do. You can worry about being competitive after a couple of events and getting an idea of what you car can do.

You can always do what I try to do, which is try to make up for the total lack of driver ability with a extremely overpowered car…

There’s probably more I could say, but I’ll leave it at this for now.

[RobbieNelson]

Classes:
Stock SS, AS, BS, CS, DS, FS, GS, HS (don't think theres a E) listed generaly from fastest to slowest. Stock classed allow sticky tires, cat backs, air filters. Thats about it.

Prepared... don't know much about it. suspension work and light engine mods.

Street Touring: STS, STX, STU
relatively new classes designed for the "tuner" crowd. You must use street tires(treadwear of 160 I think). Mostly 4 seater 2 door cars. STX was brought about for the WRX(among others) I believe.

Street Modified: Most all modifications that a "tuner" would do. You can add turbos, full suspensions, computer flashes, piggybacks. No V8s. :)

There are classes for open wheel cars such as F440s(think that's the number).

PAX scoring: At the national level all classes are given a PAX index. If you multiply your lap time with your PAX number and everyone else does the same, it's supposed to "level" the playing field among classes. Chet Burdette in his STS Neon has be rulling our PAX scoring.

Points: Given out on a local level. Every region has a slightly different scoring/points system. Ours is modeled after F1. :) Every class has its own championship.
1st - 9pts
2nd - 6pts
3rd - 4pts
4th - 2pts
5th - 1pt
Last place always gets just one point. Take your best 9 finishes at the end of the year(11 events total). If you are a loan entrant into a class, you only get points if you beat someone in the next higher class. 20 cars must compete in the class throughout the year to qualify for a championship.

Corner Working: So, who sets the cones back up after I knock them all down? Corner workers! Get a radio and a flag from the timing trailer and go work a corner. Your job there is to keep track of cones hit, resetting cones, stopping car in case "something comes up.", etc.. It's one of the best ways to learn how to drive the course. Pay close attention to the fast guys. You can learn alot from working corners. Plus, ITS REQUIRED of all competitors.

Whew, gotta rest.

[Feedman]

Well...this is gonna take me some time to digest...thanks guys for the quick answers and healthy doses of info.... 8)



ok, I read it all...again great info guys...

Since my car is already modified...I can't "de-mod" it. So from what you all are saying, I am @ a disadvantage?

I already have springs/tires/brakes. New shocks and such will be in the future. So basically I have to go....do some ride alongs....maybe work a corner or two, and then just practice @ some events to get the hang of it...

I think I can handle it.... 8)

[Feedman]

It appears I am the only one asking questions...so be it...

What is the penalty for knocking down cones?


Also..in another post, Kurt mentioned he placed 24th out of 49 people. While Robbie and Davis posted 8th and 9th places. How do they determine that. Obviously the awd turbo vehicles would have an advatage on most of the vehicles there? Equal drives the awd/turbo car is going to win and have a faster time, but it doesn't mean the better driver won...confused? 8)

[RobbieNelson]

It appears I am the only one asking questions...so be it...

What is the penalty for knocking down cones?

2 seconds


Also..in another post, Kurt mentioned he placed 24th out of 49 people. While Robbie and Davis posted 8th and 9th places. How do they determine that. Obviously the awd turbo vehicles would have an advatage on most of the vehicles there? Equal drives the awd/turbo car is going to win and have a faster time, but it doesn't mean the better driver won...confused? 8)

Thats the overall placement. See my comments above about PAX scoring for a better(but far from perfect) driver evaluation.

[Davis Silver Sti]

It appears I am the only one asking questions...so be it...

What is the penalty for knocking down cones?


Also..in another post, Kurt mentioned he placed 24th out of 49 people. While Robbie and Davis posted 8th and 9th places. How do they determine that. Obviously the awd turbo vehicles would have an advatage on most of the vehicles there? Equal drives the awd/turbo car is going to win and have a faster time, but it doesn't mean the better driver won...confused? 8)

pylons=+2 secds.
Those results (8th, 9th and 24th) were overall placing no matter what class you were in.

The other results page shows results per class which is a more fair standing.

However the time shown is usually your main time w/o the pylon correction.
For instance, Bill in the RX-7 actually had a FTD time but smaked a pylon which addded 2 seconds and dropped him to 2nd or 3rd. In this race Jerry in the mustang won. Good car, great driver, didn't hitt pylon.
( usually it seems that if you hit a pylon, you won't make fastest time in your class or FTD. After hitting the pylong, its best just to focus and keep driving and make sure you learn the rest of the course so next time around it will be a "clean run"...I'm still learning that one)

AWD and turbos are nice, but they also mean higher weight. While Robbie usually does very well (and I believe he had some FTD's last year?)its getting rather difficult against the other heavy hitters...RX-7, good handling Stangs, Z06's. When I had my RS (2.5L 165hp), the only chance I had in beating out the Type-R's were if it rained. (it never did) The higher weight would just kill me. I got 2nd place all the time in G-stock.

So do the AWD/Turbo setup give us unfair advantage? Yes and no.

Advantage: I feel that I can get on the gas much earlier than the FWD and RWD coming out of turns. (actually many AWD drivers will say this..)

Advantage: In cold or slippery conditions, the AWD will nearly dominate.

Disadvantage: The higher weight of our cars limit our handling compared to lighter FWD cars and RWD cars.

Disadvantage: Many AWD cars (including 911TT, RS6's, STi, EVO's) have a slight understeer when coming into and midway thru a corner. So our approach speed many be somewhat decreased compared to RWD cars. (look at how fast Kurt when thru the slalom vs. me)

Slight Advanage: In my STi, I put the DCCD (driver controlled center differential) in full rear lock which in a way creates more of the torque to the rear wheels making it feel a little more like a RWD car. This has helped me rotate the rear a little bit and get the car straightened out on exit and setup for the next corner. (this last event was the first time I kept it in full rear lock all the time...felt a difference. FYI, There are 5-6 various settings)

This was my 6th AutoX in my STi. It has really taken me that long to figure the handling properties and to maxmise on the "slower into corner theory, but faster out." As well as other handling issues.
Side note....If I were modding my car in suspension pieces thru the first half of the season, I wouldn't have learned very much as I would have to re-learn everything on each mod I do...swaybars, springs, coilovers etc...

Remember....A very good grade-A driver can take a lightly moded Neon or Miata (let's just say r-compound tires) and kick butt over a Z06 driven by a lower experienced driver. Yep, its true.

And to make a short story long.....
When I was with the San Diego SCCA chapter, there were a bunch of Vettes (Callaways and the sort) but one driver stuck out and was posting FTD over and over.....the trick.....great car control, precise driving, very focused, and just plain fast. All of which resulted in national championships. oh,yea....did I mention it was a middle-aged woman!
You never know....

Hope some of this helped. Kurt, Robbie, chime in...

Truly,

[xjoewhitex]

~quick question~

age limit on Drivers and riders....?

[Uber_DSM]

Q: This sounds something really fun to watch, but even better to do. Now i drive a stock nt Eclipse. I dont have much. wel i dont have anything haha. But it sparks and interests. How would i go about doing this someday. Watch it for a while? Wait for a better car?

[Feedman]

~quick question~

age limit on Drivers and riders....?


I don't think there is a limit per say. As long as you are a licensed driver and can compete. 8)

[Feedman]

Q: This sounds something really fun to watch, but even better to do. Now i drive a stock nt Eclipse. I dont have much. wel i dont have anything haha. But it sparks and interests. How would i go about doing this someday. Watch it for a while? Wait for a better car?


I say go for it . In my belief I would say its best to start off in a stock class car and compete, get to know the style of driving and then once you upgrade, beit your car or buy another, you will have alot of experience and time under your belt to compete in the higher classes.

I am @ a disadvantage. I am going to be thrown in with evo's/sti's and am going to get slaughtered. I have no experience in auto-x. I would have been way better off to compete when my car was stock and then move up when it was upgraded. Oh well, I will have to learn on a higher curve I guess.....

Good luck.... 8)

[xjoewhitex]

If being underage.. You have to have parents sign a paper saying they give you permission to ride in the event, And if you want to drive same Rule follows and added you must have a license to drive in the event.... 8)

[onyxx]

Q) How would someone get into Autocross? I mean, how would someone who has never done it actually be able to start doing it?

[Feedman]

Q) How would someone get into Autocross? I mean, how would someone who has never done it actually be able to start doing it?

Stay tuned to movFast and go when we go again...

Next Auto-x is on the 20th of February.

Be $20 bucks to enter + some for food and gas, a reliable safe car and have fun.... 8)

[onyxx]

Would you guys mind if I come up there to watch?

[onyxx]

I'd like to see you guys do it before I enter. That way I can maybe get some pointers and instructions. I'd hate to enter and not know what I'm doing, you know what I mean?

[Feedman]

Would you guys mind if I come up there to watch?

Everyone is welcome. I am not really the auto-x spokesperson....Davis, Robbie, Kurt are the ones to talk with...

8)

[MnAiXsImMoA]

we all meet on the day of the race at mineral wells rest stop at i think 8:30am and head on down. when you get there you sign a few release papers and pay 20$ and give it a shot. the best drivers around her are Davis,Robbie and Kurt, and they are always willing to ride and teach.

[Davis Silver Sti]

Would you guys mind if I come up there to watch?
Better yet..you can ride shotgun if you want!

[xjoewhitex]

Would you guys mind if I come up there to watch?
Better yet..you can ride shotgun if you want! thats what you promised me.. and i havent got to yet :cry:

[Davis Silver Sti]

Would you guys mind if I come up there to watch?
Better yet..you can ride shotgun if you want! thats what you promised me.. and i havent got to yet :cry:

you are right...you first..I promise. But you gotta show to race:)

[RobbieNelson]

and pay 20$ and give it a shot.

Registration increased this year by $2. 17$ for SCCA members and 22$ for non-members.

[onyxx]

sweet deal. I'll do my best to be there. I appreciate it guys.

[jcivi]

Wow, i just now read all this, thanks for the info fellas, i have been lookin for info on just mid ohio for a while and now i think i know enough, but if i have anymore questions i will ask you guys, thanks again
sweeeeeeeeeeeet

[chaoseg6]

yeah i probably wont drive this sunday but i will ride with someone if there are any willing volunteers