What's the difference

[C_Note]

Performance-wise, between a standard and short cold air intake?

[daveb91]

what do mean standard and short? short wouldnt be a cai because its still getting hot air from the engine compartment.

[OneBadIntegraLS]

Performance-wise, between a standard and short cold air intake?
a true Cold Air goes way down near the road bringing in Cold air which makes for a better mixture between air and fuel where the short ram really doesnt do much other than look cool and sound good because they still bring in hot air from the enigine compartment.

[C_Note]

I'm not exactly sure where the position of the filter would be for the short, but the hood has a cowl and a vent on either side of the hood. They're currently non-functional, but it would be simple to unbolt the plastic backing if that would help redirect colder air into the compartment.

And does anyone have experience with an air swirler? Are they as effective as forced air induction?

[daveb91]

The Tornado hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[RobbieNelson]

Are they as effective as forced air induction?

That would be a... NO. Probably more of an air restriction than an increase.

[xjoewhitex]

i think that a short ram intake does do a car better because its less restriction, even tho it is Hot air off the motor which that is what the stock intake is pulling in anyways... A upgrade to short ram can help.. But if you get a TCAI then you are doing a good bit of difference because it pulling the cold air 8)

[Feedman]

Performance-wise, between a standard and short cold air intake?

Absolutly nothing!! Some people will say throttle response, but little to no hp gains despite what someone will tell you.

On a smaller displacement engine such as a civic, air intakes do alot of nothing. Yes they sound cool, and look good, sadly there is little to no performance gains.

If you are talking a bigger engine such as a v8 for example, a simple intake could give you gains upwards of 10whp with the appropriate setup.... 8)

[xjoewhitex]

but i thought if you took the restriction off it would help the motor?

[Feedman]

but i thought if you took the restriction off it would help the motor?

Umm nope. Most peoples first mod is the classic intake. You have bottlencks throughout your engine.

An engine in simplest terms is nothing more than an air pump. the more air you shove in and expell, the more power you will make.

So if you reduce the factory airbox to short ram for example, you have given a more direct route to the engine. Without a way for that air to get out of the engine faster, you haven't really increased performance. If you were to do a full exhast setup, header/highflow cat/resonator/muffler then you would be one step closer.

Now that the engine is receiving more air, you want to make sure it is using it as effectively as possible. Its time for cams, headwork and higher compression pistons assuming you are going to stay N/a.

And thats just the start.... 8)

[xjoewhitex]

I see what you were trying to say now.... So i was right on 1/2 the matter. 8)

[RobbieNelson]

So if you reduce the factory airbox to short ram for example, you have given a more direct route to the engine. Without a way for that air to get out of the engine faster, you haven't really increased performance. If you were to do a full exhast setup, header/highflow cat/resonator/muffler then you would be one step closer.

With this logic, superchargers won't do anything until you upgrade your exhaust. Not true.

Reducing restrictions in the intake system will increase volumetric effeciency. How much of a reduction in restriction when upgrading the intake is really the question.

Cars the use a MAS should be cautious when changing anything thats before or after the MAS. The way the air flows through the MAS is calibrated for the factory intake system. If you mess the the MASs signal you will change the AFR during open loop operation; which can be bad.

FWIW... You won't see me upgrading my intake(up to the turbo) ANY time soon.

[Davis Silver Sti]

I agree with Adam and Robbie. Intakes really don't do much of anything. Whether its a NA 4 cyl or a turbo'd 4 or 6 cyl...you just can't get much of a hp change to make it worth a thing.

V-8 and v-10's have the best use for intakes but once again it will not gain more than 10hp.

Let's say 1/2 hp gain for 4cyl :lol:

However your butt dyno will probably make you think you are getting a least 20hp!

[Feedman]

So if you reduce the factory airbox to short ram for example, you have given a more direct route to the engine. Without a way for that air to get out of the engine faster, you haven't really increased performance. If you were to do a full exhast setup, header/highflow cat/resonator/muffler then you would be one step closer.

With this logic, superchargers won't do anything until you upgrade your exhaust. Not true.

Reducing restrictions in the intake system will increase volumetric effeciency. How much of a reduction in restriction when upgrading the intake is really the question.

Cars the use a MAS should be cautious when changing anything thats before or after the MAS. The way the air flows through the MAS is calibrated for the factory intake system. If you mess the the MASs signal you will change the AFR during open loop operation; which can be bad.

FWIW... You won't see me upgrading my intake(up to the turbo) ANY time soon.


Ah, but I didn't say anything about boosted applications did I? I was speaking strictly N/a. With that established the above statement still holds true.

Secondly I believe its Map and Maf. Manifold Abolute Pressure such as a Civic, and Mass Air Flow such as a Dsm. I think the best example for what Robbie was trying to say is this: When a person wants to hear there stock bov become louder, they unhook the recyling hose off the bov and it then vents to the atmosphere instead of back into the intake manifold. What this usually causes is a rich condition b/c the air has already been metered before the bov vented the air. The ecu has already calculated X amount of air to be mixed with Y amount of gasoline. The air that enters the cylinders is not what was accounted for, therefore incomplete combustion occurs.

The reason this doesn't occur on a Map equipped car, is b/c the map sensor is usally located on the throttle body, therefore nothing will affect air unless there is a vacuum leak after the sensor.

Hope that clears things up a bit.... 8)

[RobbieNelson]

Ah, but I didn't say anything about boosted applications did I? I was speaking strictly N/a. With that established the above statement still holds true.

Take a Fluids class.

Volumetric efficency is a valid topic for Naturally Aspirated and Forced Induction systems, although it is much more of a concern for N/A cars. A cylinder of an engine displaces a certain physical volume. That cylinder will never be able to fill itself with the same volume of air(at standard temprature and pressure) due to restrictions(pressure losses). The ratio of actual cylinder volume to the volume of air(at STP) is the volumetric effiency.

If I put a large restriction in the intake the VE will go down. When the VE goes down, so does the HP. The reverse is true also. Regardless of the exhaust upgrades, removing restrictions on the intake side will increase the VE and the HP. The question is how much VE will be gained by adding a CAI... usually, not much.


Secondly I believe its Map and Maf.

MAS stands for Mass Air Sensor. MAF refers to the type of system and measured quantity. There are more than one type of MAS.

Don't believe me... try this... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... car+intake (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=mas+car+intake)

MAP is the measured quantity(also refers to the sensor). Speed Density is the type of system.


I think the best example for what Robbie was trying to say is this: When a person wants to hear there stock bov become louder, they unhook the recyling hose off the bov and it then vents to the atmosphere instead of back into the intake manifold. What this usually causes is a rich condition b/c the air has already been metered before the bov vented the air. The ecu has already calculated X amount of air to be mixed with Y amount of gasoline. The air that enters the cylinders is not what was accounted for, therefore incomplete combustion occurs.

Well, sort of. The typical MAS dosen't measure the air flow through the entire sensor. It take its reading from a particular area. The flow through the sensor may not be equal in all areas or may not be equally distibuted... but thats OK because the engineers calibrate that into the ECU. When you mess with the duct work fore and aft of the MAS, most likely you will redistribute the airflow through the sensor; causing the ECU to read the wrong values. How wrong is the question?


The reason this doesn't occur on a Map equipped car, is b/c the map sensor is usally located on the throttle body, therefore nothing will affect air unless there is a vacuum leak after the sensor.

True dat... Plus... Loud BOVs aren't very sneaky. Everyone will want to race you.

I bet the only reason you went with a turboed Honda was so you could VTA(vent to atmosphere). :lol:

[wv^clipse]

i upgraded the intake on my eclipse.. noticable gain..
its an Injen cai.. it converts to a short wai for inclimate weather.. although i dont see much of a point in doing that unless i'm going snorkeling with the car..

there were dyno results posted on this subject in the eclipse forum, the long cai which goes down where it can grab cold air produced better numbers than the short ram.. and the short ram produced better numbers than the stock equipment..

now where the numbers came from is another question.. the stock equipment was awful.. not bad.. Awful. restriction and the pick up area being near the radiator.. i dont know what they were thinking.

robbie is correct in saying that the sensors and ecu are designed to be run as the factory intended.. sooo, if you go with a CAI.. go with a reputable one, or atleast watch what you buy..

as for the tornado or any other so called 'forced induction replicators'.. they're gimicks.. stray from those.. save your money for more worthwhile mods..

thats my .02 :)

[Feedman]

i upgraded the intake on my eclipse.. noticable gain..
its an ingen cai.. it converts to a short wai for inclimate weather.. although i dont see much of a point in doing that unless i'm going snorkeling with the car..

there were dyno results posted on this subject in the eclipse forum, the long cai which goes down where it can grab cold air produced better numbers than the short ram.. and the short ram produced better numbers than the stock equipment..

now where the numbers came from is another question.. the stock equipment was awful.. not bad.. Awful. restriction and the pick up area being near the radiator.. i dont know what they were thinking.

robbie is correct in saying that the sensors and ecu are designed to be run as the factory intended.. sooo, if you go with a CAI.. go with a reputable one, or atleast watch what you buy..

as for the tornado or any other so called 'forced induction replicators'.. they're gimicks.. stray from those.. save your money for more worthwhile mods..

thats my .02 :)


Dyno #'s provide proof. I have seen Aem dyno there product on there equipment showing gains compared to Injen. Then I have seen Injen dyno there products on you guessed it, Injen dynos and what do you know, they provided better numbers. Its all a game. An intake on a small displacement engine non boosted, DOES NOT give any signigicant hp gains.

I beleive what you felt was improved throttle response which translated into "more power". 8)

[wv^clipse]

I beleive what you felt was improved throttle response which translated into "more power". 8)

i'm not saying its earthmoving.. better flow.. alittle cooler air.. nothing like strapping on a big honkin blower.. i've never dyno'd the car.. and dont EVER plan on putting that contraption they called an intake back on it.. all i can go off of is the numbers memebers of the eclipse forums posted about their cars.. acouple things to take into consideration here too.. all dynos are differnt and produce diffrent results under diffrent circumstances.. the mas sensor maybe in a slightly diffrent location giving it a 'tuned' effect to the ecu..

i dont see how better flow and cooler air cant produce a minimal gain.. in any engine.. hell even a lawnmower.. IMO, CAI is a good investment on a car thats going to be NA for a while.. like you said.. more air you can get in.. and the more you can get out.. the better the peformance will be.

[Racerx300zx]

So why not find someone who has had an independant dyno run done, While most companies will support thier own product, the question isn't which cai is the best, but does it upgrade performance, and yes, it does, while it's rarely more than 3 hp, it's still another 3 hp, some will gain more, some less, case in point, 88 nissan 200 sx, the car is starved for air, you can put your hand over the opening for the intake and watch the tubes flatten, haven't seen a lot of cars attempt to draw that much air.

[daveb91]

Yeah most CAI only give very minimal gains like said before 3hp but most have said the throttle response was worth the change. Also i wonder if the type of engine managment would also make a difference in gains. Like a OBD0 car would respond to changes better than a OBD2 car because of the sensors?

[Feedman]

Performance-wise, between a standard and short cold air intake?

Absolutly nothing!! Some people will say throttle response, but little to no hp gains despite what someone will tell you.

On a smaller displacement engine such as a civic, air intakes do alot of nothing. Yes they sound cool, and look good, sadly there is little to no performance gains.

If you are talking a bigger engine such as a v8 for example, a simple intake could give you gains upwards of 10whp with the appropriate setup.... 8)

8)

[daveb91]

Sometimes Adam you just dont read, nice try OBD0 vs Later.

[Feedman]

Sometimes Adam you just dont read, nice try OBD0 vs Later.

I was replying to wv^clipse...... not you....Dave..... 8)

[wv^clipse]

I was replying to wv^clipse...... not you....Dave..... 8)


3hp > nil



better flow and cooler air cant produce a minimal gain.. in any engine.. hell even a lawnmower..

"whats that sound in lower vienna?"
"oh thats just Chris's lawnmower spooling up"
:P

[ShortysTRM]

3hp > nil



I couldn't agree more...if you pay 15,000 for a car with 160 HP, that's $93.75 per HP (that IS why you bought the car, not the interior, sex appeal, etc...right? :lol: ) The dyno sheet for the intake we used on my fiancee's alero showed like 5-9 HP and 5 Lb.ft. of torque, and that's from AEM. Assuming it's only 5 HP, at $170, that's $34 per HP...why WOULDN'T you do it? The sound and fuel mileage alone are worth it, and the throttle response is an added bonus. If you're too cheap or don't have the money to buy it, fine, but to anyone who would like to spend a small amount of money to increase the satisfaction with your overall driving experience, I highly recommend a less-restrictive intake from a respectable company. With car mods, you should never look back and always plan ahead...and keep a close tab on your budget :D

[C_Note]

Well, she's already annoyed at the rattle of the cat, so I'm considering replacing the exhaust anyway, maybe even a new set of headers. But after searching every single site I could find, there is no CAI system that fits this model of Impreza, so a Short RAM is pretty much the only option.

As I mentioned, there's a hood scoop and 2 vents on the hood, so if I can redirect the filter upwards, maybe I can get a little cooler air from one of these vents.

Also been meaning to ask, it's probably already been posted but I keep forgetting to do a search, but is there a public use dyno here locally? If so, is it off the fly, or at the wheels? Cost?

Thanks

[Feedman]

Well, she's already annoyed at the rattle of the cat, so I'm considering replacing the exhaust anyway, maybe even a new set of headers. But after searching every single site I could find, there is no CAI system that fits this model of Impreza, so a Short RAM is pretty much the only option.

As I mentioned, there's a hood scoop and 2 vents on the hood, so if I can redirect the filter upwards, maybe I can get a little cooler air from one of these vents.

Also been meaning to ask, it's probably already been posted but I keep forgetting to do a search, but is there a public use dyno here locally? If so, is it off the fly, or at the wheels? Cost?

Thanks

I believe the closet dyno is @ Washington State Community College. I don't know what type it is? Does anyone know?

My car is going to be finished within the next few weeks, when its done, I am going to make a little trek over there....I am going to try and make it a movFast event.... 8)

[xjoewhitex]

well we have 2 here in marietta.. one was at WSCC like adam said.. and there is one up at my school the Washington County Career Center.. Which would be alot cheeper i figure.. im thinking the college charges maybe $100 an hr. but im not sure on that... :?

[Feedman]

well we have 2 here in marietta.. one was at WSCC like adam said.. and there is one up at my school the Washington County Career Center.. Which would be alot cheeper i figure.. im thinking the college charges maybe $100 an hr. but im not sure on that... :?

Can you find out? 8)

[xjoewhitex]

yea i dont go to the college but i could find oh the hr. Charge and i could also ask at my school.. The only problem there is at my school is that if ur cars to low ur not makin it.. Because of the ramp to get in the garage.... Il Hook it up..... :wink:

[daveb91]

Sometimes Adam you just dont read, nice try OBD0 vs Later.

I was replying to wv^clipse...... not you....Dave..... 8)

Well then sometimes you dont make yourself clear Adam 8)

[C_Note]

That's why I was wondering if it's off the fly or at the wheels. The Sub is AWD, so I couldn't use an axle run dyno...

[Racerx300zx]

another issue with cai and wai is the size of the tube, after a maf is you have one, *&^%@ mazda, of course, most of us don't have the money to go get a bunch of intakes and test until we find the perfect diameter pipe