Rusty's Supra Engine Thread

[kmfdmk]

So I've got a new job blowing stuff up for a living. Bona Fide certified bomb technician :D Go me. When I'm not in Puerto Rico getting a tan and trying to keep all my limbs I'll be saving up and working on my MKII (2nd Gen) 1985 Supra.

I plan on swapping the original 5M-GE I-6 2.8 liter EFI DOHC non-turbo for a MKIII engine, the 7M-GTE, an I-6 3.0 liter EFI 24v DOHC turbo.

I'll be getting the JDM 7M-GTE from RabidChimp.com, where for $2028 I'll receive the following:

Fuel rail, turbo, turbo manifold, injectors, and intake plenum.

The following new parts will be installed:

Titan Motorsports 1.4mm metal head gasket
ARP head studs
Thermostat w/ gasket
Water pump
Timing belt
Timing belt tensioner
Front and rear crankshaft main seals
Oil pump drive shaft seal
Front camshaft seals
Valve cover gaskets
Oil filter
Bosch platinum spark plugs

It'll be compression tested, and will come with a one year warranty. I will have to use my 5M-GE oil pan, oil pump, and pickup tube.

New bearings, rings, thrust washers, valve grind, valve stem seals, and valve adjustment for an additional $1557.40

For $2670.97 I can get the new bearings, washers, valve grind, stem seals, valve adjustment and Ross Racing forged rods & pistons.

I'm also going to have to source some parts from a donor car (that I've yet to find... but that's going to come later).

For $500.00 + labor I can have the entire engine crygenically frozen to relieve stressed components.

So to add all that up... I'm looking @ $5198.97 + labor to have them (Aaron Garney from RabidChimp) tear it down freeze it and rebuild it. Plus I'm looking at another ??$150? for a wiring harness from a junk yard, plus a bunch of other stuff. The more I think about how much that is... the more I think I just need to buy a 240sx and drop in an SR20DET, or an RB25DET into it. God know's it'd be cheaper...

Anyways... on the above engine setup... for the 5500 or so I spend on the engine, anyone see where there's room for improvement or something different to use? (No silly comments about switching to a differnent car :D)

I want to get a decent amount of power (300 to 350hp) out of it and have it last through abusive street, Auto-X, and drifting/track use. (No I don't plan on competing perse in Auto-X, I like it and it's fun nothing more really).

I was speaking with Kurt he mentioned I should check out other aspects of the vehicle, i.e. ck. for chassis rot, upgrade suspension, & xmission componenets etc.

The goal is to upgrade the suspension, rims, brakes, diff, & engine for the tune of about $10,000 +/- some. But looking @ the engine prices it seems like it's almost a waste. I can get a MKIV Supra Turbo w/ 180,000 miles for oh... around $16,000 to $18,000. Albeit I'd have the same problem a great car and a flogged engine.

What I'm asking... any other things I should consider on engine internals?
I'm going with forged pistons, having the valve work done. Should I get it magna-flux'd too? I want to be mean to the engine, I want it to run like my 225 Slant-6 did. Able to have the piss ran out of it and still start up every day.

[InterceptorXR7]

hail the slant 6!

I would buy a newer one, but if you like your body style, then the sky's the limit, as long as you got the pockets for it.

whats the compression ratio (it should come with lower compression pistons the new engine is turbo), but just for sh*ts and giggles....

rear end? is it going to hold up or are you going to have to upgrade it?

but if the project becomes complete, then that will be awesome.

by the way, did you drive a cougar for a while, i swear i saw a cougar with your license plate.

[kmfdmk]

Yeah I drive I think a 93 Cougar, w/ a 4.6 it'd dark green with the clear coat coming off the roof, chrome "eyebrows" on the rear fenderwells (bought it that way), and a small crack in the rear left reflector. But it runs like a top :D

After some discussion on the Celica Supra forums... It's been suggested to simply switch from a 7M-GTE w/ a 600 HP final goal (which would be maxing out any entire engine block, head, turbo setup) to a 2JZ-GTE (or even better GTTE) because the stock bottom end will support 600 to 700 HP in STOCK configuration.

The only issue there is changing engine mounts, transmission and all the rest.

[Davis Silver Sti]

Sounds like a fun and interesting project Rusty.

Since you mentioned "abusive street, Auto-X, and drifting/track use" I highly recommend BIG brakes, chassis stiffening, suspension upgrades and some budget left over for good W or Y-rated street tires. (add on what Kurt mentioned above)

Make sure to take a bunch of pics!

[kmfdmk]

Big Brakes - apparently we can mod a 350Z's brakes to fit on my car!! If not that route I know I can get I think 10.5" rotors and calipers. I saw somewhere you can get titanium heat spreaders for the backs of the brakes. I also plan on running some ducting to the front brakes and switching to a streetable HP front pad. Too many times I've decelerated and had brake fade and smelt my brakes cooked. (When there's smoke coming from the front brakes that's excessive :D) I'll ad a SS line kit to replace the stock steel ones.

Chassis Stiffening - I've already got a rear shock tower bar, that I'm going to upgrade to something that looks and works better. Up front Im' going to add either a strut tower bar. I'm also looking to fill certain areas of the chassis with foam, and I'll be adding a roll cage that I'm going to make myself with the MIG welder I haven't bought yet. Kurt when I get it... feel free to borrow it when you get that Miata Kit :D
Does anyone have a quick link to reqt's for roll cages?? Or info on different designs? I already plan on bracing the intersections w/ sheetmetal and dimpling it.

Gacchiri Fender Brace Support I saw it on some ricer site and thought I could make up some for the Supra. It's got a weird Japanese? name.
http://s92169157.onlinehome.us/albums/random/0510it_chassis05_z.jpg

Suspension - Eibach lower springs and Koni Blue's, w/ Suspension Techniques Poly Bushing kit for the front and the kit for the Rear Subframe, Swing Arms, Shock U & L mounts as well. Addco swaybars that are I think 5 & 3mm oversize F&R respectively.

Also I can do a 5-bolt hub conversion and switch to the larger rims that way (better selection too).

At the rate I'm going I'll just have to put off getting married so I can get my car done:D

[kmfdmk]

Found a car to put the JDM Turbo engine into, it's an 86 Supra. Right now it's an auto but I'll be putting an R154 behind it. Looks like I can get the car for right around $2400 with 197,000 miles it's pristine. *cough* And an auto - bullshit *cough*

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/maurice171270/album/576460762393224134

Despite being high mileage it's incredibly clean.

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/HyKWMrr7BgPI/__sr_/a716.jpg?tkn=phA5yDGBBc3grJKE&saveas=DSC00402

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/HyKWMrr7BgPI/__sr_/b036.jpg?tkn=phA5yDGBrDt8NK0D&saveas=DSC00387

It's in Louisiana... Only like 600 miles away. Trying to figure out when / how to get it.

[daveb91]

i would drop a 22rte engine in it. There is still huge aftermarket for it. And I could have swore you now drive a T bird not a Mercury :?

[kmfdmk]

I drive a 93 Green 4.3? (or 4.6) Mercury Cougar Interceptor jk I donno if it's an interceptor.

Yeah you are making a good point. I can get a 22-RTE from LC Engineering who specializes in making amazingly built 22R variants. Whether for Sand, Rock Climbing, Off-Road, Circle Track etc... LC definately has their shit together.

However for their 22R Turbo High Perf motor (16+ lbs boost) it' $6,388.75 plus the $2,895.00 for the High Perf turbo kit.

http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebGear/partimages/1071006.JPG

For that same 9000 bucks I can build extremely modified 7M-GTE or a mildly tweaked 2JZ-GTE setup.

[daveb91]

Or you could do some of the work yourself. Its always cheaper that way. That damn motor seem to come in everything for 20 years.

[kmfdmk]

Yeah although at this point the biggest problem is that I'm always on the road. Here in Puerto Rico I don't even have a garage, or any tools. Pretty much just my clothes & my laptop.

It's frustrating because I only work 4 days a week so I've got all this free time on the weekends, and nothing to do with my hands.... which is why I'm wanting to do some reading up on blueprinting and engine building. I've got the math comprehension to perform the advanced calculus to figure out how to make stuff work I just don't know what characteristics I need to change...

Lightened flywheel, larger crank with shorter rods will make it spin up easier. (Think riding a bicycle... the longer the lever arm/pedal is the more effective torque you've got)

[daveb91]

http://www.doaracingengines.com/page2/page2.html

[Jay]

Yeah although at this point the biggest problem is that I'm always on the road. Here in Puerto Rico I don't even have a garage, or any tools. Pretty much just my clothes & my laptop.

It's frustrating because I only work 4 days a week so I've got all this free time on the weekends, and nothing to do with my hands.... which is why I'm wanting to do some reading up on blueprinting and engine building. I've got the math comprehension to perform the advanced calculus to figure out how to make stuff work I just don't know what characteristics I need to change...

Lightened flywheel, larger crank with shorter rods will make it spin up easier. (Think riding a bicycle... the longer the lever arm/pedal is the more effective torque you've got)


Shorter rods put more stress on the cylinder bore. It increases your rod angle to the block causing more friction. Longer rods put less stress on things resulting in a longer motor life.

Light flywheels allow you to reach your desired RPM faster but you will lose some "umph" in doing so. Think of it like this.. Your buddy throws a can of soda at you and you catch it with ease. Next he throws a 2 litre bottle of soda at you with the exact same ammount of force. You catch it, but it has more mass behind it.
Basically youre reducing rotating mass which is good for quick revving but you will be losing some torque so to speak.

Find what HP goal's and in what RPM range you are wanting to be in. Build accordingly.

Cam's can be matched for the right RPM range where you want the most tq/hp. If you want decent power "nothing insane" and little lag time go with a slightly higher compression ratio. You will not be able to run as much boost but your turbo will spool alot quicker. Cams and intake mani also come to play here. Remember the faster you can suck air into your engine, the faster you can push it out. Thus making power.

[narfdanarf]

Shorter rods put more stress on the cylinder bore. It increases your rod angle to the block causing more friction. Longer rods put less stress on things resulting in a longer motor life.


I think you have that backwards...a longer rod typically has a longer stoke, which means more side load into the cylinder wall, also means to travel the same distance in the same amount of time, the piston speeds have to be very high, this is why a b16 actually has higher piston speeds than a f1 car, even though they rev twice as high. So higher piston speeds, and more side load into cylinder wall = more wear.

[Jay]

Shorter rods put more stress on the cylinder bore. It increases your rod angle to the block causing more friction. Longer rods put less stress on things resulting in a longer motor life.


I think you have that backwards...a longer rod typically has a longer stoke, which means more side load into the cylinder wall, also means to travel the same distance in the same amount of time, the piston speeds have to be very high, this is why a b16 actually has higher piston speeds than a f1 car, even though they rev twice as high. So higher piston speeds, and more side load into cylinder wall = more wear.

No, I dont.

A shorter rod means the rod is showing the piston more of an angle.
That shows more side load. Jesus christ, pick up a pen and do it in front of your face. The longer the rod the less of an angle it shows the piston. The shorter the rod the more the angle to compensate.

[narfdanarf]

nope.

[narfdanarf]

nope, the longer rod means the crank journal is offset farther (longer stroke) which means more side load into the cylinder.

Now I'm talking about strokin an engine, not just putting a longer rod with a piston with a shorter skirt in an engine.

[Jay]

To prove a point I made this with my mad ms paint skills.

[Jay]

Now to back up my wicked awesome painting..

http://victorylibrary.com/tech/crod-c.htm

---

Ratio “n” = Rod Length ÷ Stroke
The rod’s length is measured (for this purpose) from the center of the piston-pin opening to the center of the big-end bore, not overall. There is a small range of ratios for most conventional piston engines: the rod is between roughly 1.4 and 2.2 times the stroke length. It’s not possible for the rod to be the same length as the stroke, and rods much longer than twice the stroke make the motor very tall, and are not practical for most purposes (although used for racing).

The rod angle must not encourage excessive friction at the cylinder wall and piston skirt. A greater angle (smaller value of "n") will occur by installing a shorter rod or by increasing the stroke. A reduced angle (larger value of “n") will occur with a longer rod or a shorter stroke.
If the rod length is decreased, or the stroke is increased, the “n” ratio value becomes smaller. This has several effects. The most obvious is the mechanical effect. Motors with low values of “n" (proportionately short rods or long strokes) typically exhibit the following characteristics (compared to high “n” motors):
Physically shorter top-to-bottom & front-to-rear (more frame clearance)
Higher level of vibration
Shorter pistons, measured from the pin center to the bottom of the skirt
Greater wear on piston skirts and cylinder walls
Slightly higher operating temperature & oil temperature due to friction

[Jay]

Since I have a feeling the nextthing to be said after viewing my pic was "but that crank has a longer stroke on it" I have made this other pic using the same crank stroke as before but with a much smaller rod showing the difference.

However,
What is the point in using a shorter rod with the stock stroke crank unless you plan on going dome pistons or something?

[narfdanarf]

lol for some reason I was thinking long rod = long stroke cause I was referring to stroking a engine. So in my head I we were essentially saying the same thing :P

[Jay]

A stroker would make more power. Be nice for spooling that turbo quick

I dont know the first thing abuot drifting tho, or the motor setups they use.

[kmfdmk]

Since I have a feeling the nextthing to be said after viewing my pic was "but that crank has a longer stroke on it" I have made this other pic using the same crank stroke as before but with a much smaller rod showing the difference.

However,
What is the point in using a shorter rod with the stock stroke crank unless you plan on going dome pistons or something?

That's a very good point that you make Jay. Well if I were to keep in NA I might go with the some domed pistons. I had completely forgotten the taller pistons to keep the same amount of displacement. If I turbo the setup I might go with a smaller amount of dome as I don't want to radically vary from the stock displacement & compression. So I would need the taller/domed pistons.

However after reading the extra information that you posted about the added stress, friction, & higher engine temps from a stroked crank... I'm not too sure I want to go that route. I really just want to build a fast revving engine that will endure high RPM's (which I love).

[Jay]

You could keep the stock stroke and be fine im sure.

Im not real sure what range of power a drifter needs, but I am sure it could be acheived with the right set of cams, headwork, mated to the right sized turbo for optimal peak boost for your range.

How much horse do these things usually have?

[kmfdmk]

5M-GE - 2.8 liter I6, 12valve NA - about 160HP Fresh
7M-GE - 3.0 liter I6, 24valve NA - about 190HP Fresh
7M-GTE - 3.0 liter I6, 24valve Turbo - about 232 Fresh

And by Fresh I mean stock & brand new internals.

[Jay]

5M-GE - 2.8 liter I6, 12valve NA - about 160HP Fresh
7M-GE - 3.0 liter I6, 24valve NA - about 190HP Fresh
7M-GTE - 3.0 liter I6, 24valve Turbo - about 232 Fresh

And by Fresh I mean stock & brand new internals.

Well this helps me.. But I was speaking of the drift cars. How much hp/tq do those usually have?

I would imagine a torquey motor would be more to the liking of drifters than a peaky hp motor. But then again, dont kow much about it.