Tuning... (split from Davis' Wheel thread)

[RobbieNelson]

Mods for Spring/Summer 2005 include coilovers, sway bars and Cobb stage 2 kit (Turbo back exhaust + engine management. :)

That Cobb stage 2 looks like a good value. Are you going catless? I'm trying to decide whether I wanna keep my cat or not. A 3" downpipe will probably show up under my Christmas tree. :D

[narfdanarf]

Mods for Spring/Summer 2005 include coilovers, sway bars and Cobb stage 2 kit (Turbo back exhaust + engine management. :)

That Cobb stage 2 looks like a good value. Are you going catless? I'm trying to decide whether I wanna keep my cat or not. A 3" downpipe will probably show up under my Christmas tree. :D


are you kidding me? I was just looking at that site and I was thoroughly unimpressed. WOW is all I can say. first off I was amazed to see that stock STI only makes 238 whp :shock: then that the stage 2 kit costs 1600 bucks and picks you up 39 hp.... :?

[Feedman]

Awd kills the power output....can you say parasitic loss....lol....

One of the Pro's of Wrong Wheel Drive.... 8)

[narfdanarf]

well hell the evo has more power than that to the wheels and starts off with a heck of a lot less. If the STI didn't have so much torque, the evo would destroy it in every way...I am completely dumbfounded by this..it seriously blows my mind...



sorry for going OT...I'm just flabergasted by the mediocrity of something I thought was amazing.

[MnAiXsImMoA]

what kind of stock boost #'s does the sti run and what can it run with a boost controller pushing it to the limit?

[RobbieNelson]

well hell the evo has more power than that to the wheels and starts off with a heck of a lot less.

Not on a Mustang dyno they don't. HP and TQ numbers are NOT set in stone. They will vary run to run, dyno mfg to dyno mfg, etc.. On a Dyno Dynamics dyno the Evo hits like... 210HP(I think).

The graph for the Cobb stage 2 has a huge gain in torque in the lower RPM range. That low end grunt is nice for us that like to turn the wheel(i.e. not just drag race).

Not sure you know about the access port and what it does. Swallace had one on his WRX. It's hella tight.

[narfdanarf]

Yeah, I know what it does it's like a quick change for ecu maps....never really understood that...I don't think it would be very safe for your engine, unless you had different maps for different octanes/boost levels...butt then so does hondata...and you can get that feature for an extra 180 bucks.

hell I think even uberdata has that feature and it's free....you just have to build it from parts from like radio shack and what not.

Plus like I have said before, every engine is different and preset maps are not the way to go. It would be one thing if you did different dyno pulls and created 10 different maps for your car, butt just downloading someone else's off the innerweb doesn't sound very healthy.

[Feedman]

Plus like I have said before, every engine is different and preset maps are not the way to go. It would be one thing if you did different dyno pulls and created 10 different maps for your car, butt just downloading someone else's off the innerweb doesn't sound very healthy.

Totally agree. I guess thats how I held my own with Jordans Evo....

I was putting 200whp to the ground and with him in the 210/220whp range and more torque but more weight, we held pretty even.... 8)

[RobbieNelson]

Yeah, I know what it does it's like a quick change for ecu maps....never really understood that...I don't think it would be very safe for your engine, unless you had different maps for different octanes/boost levels...butt then so does hondata...and you can get that feature for an extra 180 bucks.

91oct, 93oct, 100oct, valet mode(via no boost or something), anti-theft(very low rev limit... like 200) <---examples


hell I think even uberdata has that feature and it's free....you just have to build it from parts from like radio shack and what not.

Plus like I have said before, every engine is different and preset maps are not the way to go. It would be one thing if you did different dyno pulls and created 10 different maps for your car, butt just downloading someone else's off the innerweb doesn't sound very healthy.

Most factory engines are within, say, 10% of each other. Most of the respectable tuners that offer downloadable maps, take this 10% or so into account. The downloadable tunes are not getting the most out of all engines. Some can be tuned further with the use of a dyno and a wideband.

As far as price goes, I think the Honda stuff is more affordable because there are more Honda tuners out there.

I'd like to have a DSMLink for my Evo... supposedly they have plans for one.

[RobbieNelson]

I was putting 200whp to the ground

I'm too lazy to look it up... What kinda dyno was that on?

[narfdanarf]

Dynojet, butt supposedly it was corrected to be more synonymous with a dynopack/mustang dynos I believe or something like that...I wasn't really paying attention.

[xjoewhitex]

what kind of stock boost #'s does the sti run and what can it run with a boost controller pushing it to the limit? im not exactly sure on this.. But if i remember what davis told me it was around 12-14psi was the stock boost.. while the evo is running 18psi, i think don't quote me 8)

[Feedman]

Dynojet, butt supposedly it was corrected to be more synonymous with a dynopack/mustang dynos I believe or something like that...I wasn't really paying attention.

Yea, something like that..lol.

I was still "untuned" b/c of my exhuast leak, which I belive in turn caused my pistons to crack.... 8)

[Davis Silver Sti]

Cobb is well known tuner in the Sube world. (almost like a Bushur) One thing that Cobb does well is that he does conservative tunes without stressing the car (ie, won't go lean) while making good power.

This is still my daily driver...I want a useful hp but especially good torque curve without having to crank it to redline every single time like one might get in some rev-happy cars.

The STi dynos between 230-245whp in completely stock config. The stage 2 is not a huge upgrade..bascially just exhaust and mild engine management for better power and ease of switching maps.

See graph below... ( http://cobbtuning.com/sti/power-s.html#stage2 )
Notice the torque curve??? 316 at 3400 rpm! That's quite the improvement over stock and should put down some hard USEFUL acceleration.

While more power is always fun, I really need something that is useful for everyday stuff, some customising and not too $$. The Cobb stage 2 looks pretty good foor that.

You could always go crazy and get a larger turbo, better engine management (Xede or ECUTEC), larger injectors...etc... but driveability goes down and the wear on other things goes way up such as to rebuild 6-spd tranny, bigger/stronger clutch, bushings etc.. Its just not for me.

I don't want more than 350hp and 385 torque (flywheel) on my car. (300hp and 300 torque has been fine but alittle more is always fun right?)

Don't know for sure if I'm going catless or not. I don't want it too loud or flames shooting out but dunno how much the performance decreases plus legality reasons.

It'll still be sometime before I get those mods but you guys will be the first to know:)

[Davis Silver Sti]

what kind of stock boost #'s does the sti run and what can it run with a boost controller pushing it to the limit?

I believe I'm at 14.7 psi (atmosphere) for high boost. It will taper some when getting into higher gears at faster speed and very near redline.

Some guys are running into 19-20 psi but I just don't think its too swift of an idea to do that without the proper tuning.

[Davis Silver Sti]

Mods for Spring/Summer 2005 include coilovers, sway bars and Cobb stage 2 kit (Turbo back exhaust + engine management. :)

Are you going catless? I'm trying to decide whether I wanna keep my cat or not. A 3" downpipe will probably show up under my Christmas tree. :D

Cat or no cat...tough decision. (see my longer post)
Downpipe! Sweet! Can't wait to see the reaction.

[ShortysTRM]

Let me get this straight...238 HP at all four wheels is mediocre and $1600 for 68 lb. ft. of torque is expensive? Most cars only wish they'd gain 68 lb ft at the wheels with the addition of forced induction. In this case, it will probably also provide better driveability and fuel mileage. Horsepower is way overrated lol.

39 HP for $1600 isn't even expensive. The John Cooper Works package for the Minis brings them from 163 HP to 197 (34 hp) and costs $4500 plus installation, which was quoted in Automobile magazine recently as costing $1387 (I believe).

[MnAiXsImMoA]

what kind of stock boost #'s does the sti run and what can it run with a boost controller pushing it to the limit? im not exactly sure on this.. But if i remember what davis told me it was around 12-14psi was the stock boost.. while the evo is running 18psi, i think don't quote me 8)


the evo runs i believe 9lbs. to 14 at about 3.5 or 4 grand and then drops back down to 9 shortly after if i remeber correctly. With the boost controller you can run 19 safely in warm weather and up to 21 in cooler weather, but its not reccomended.

[narfdanarf]

no the evo is a lot higher than that stock...I think Robbie hit's like 19 stock though it falls down a little...

[RobbieNelson]

no the evo is a lot higher than that stock...I think Robbie hit's like 19 stock though it falls down a little...

Yep.... 19-20 at about 4K, dropping to about 17 at redline.

[MnAiXsImMoA]

hmmmmmmmmmm......i guess i was misinformed then

[narfdanarf]

the thing with jordan's is that it hit's 19-20 butt doesn't fall back off...

[Feedman]

the thing with jordan's is that it hit's 19-20 butt doesn't fall back off...

Correct....peaks and holds... 8)

[RobbieNelson]

the thing with jordan's is that it hit's 19-20 butt doesn't fall back off...

Correct....peaks and holds... 8)

Jordon..... Does it hold all they way to redline?

[narfdanarf]

yeah on cold days at 100% boost it hits like what 20.7 and stays there.

[Feedman]

yeah on cold days at 100% boost it hits like what 20.7 and stays there.

Yes. Cam was correct when he said on colder days he hits ~21psi and on warmer days he drops it a few lbs for safety concerns. From what I have heard and been told, thats a good idea....stock Evo @ 21psi w/humid weather = Voided Factory Warranty...lol.... 8)

[Davis Silver Sti]

yeah on cold days at 100% boost it hits like what 20.7 and stays there.

Yes. Cam was correct when he said on colder days he hits ~21psi and on warmer days he drops it a few lbs for safety concerns. From what I have heard and been told, thats a good idea....stock Evo @ 21psi w/humid weather = Voided Factory Warranty...lol.... 8)

20+psi sounds a little hairy without the proper controls imho.

[narfdanarf]

well it hits 19 stock...so 2 more lbs isn't that big of a deal me thinks...you hit what like 15lbs and I hear people bumping their STI's up to 17lbs...I don't think it's unsafe..however I've heard that EVO's will need a lot of fuel upgrades after a little over 20+lbs.

[ShortysTRM]

I know that the 2G DSM's have a few little easy tricks to gaining power/responsiveness. Youmay want to go to somewhere like dsmtuners.com or evolutionm.net and look for free mods. You have your airbox top cut out right? One of the 2G mods is removing the boost control solenoid restrictor, which gets you another ~2 lbs of boost for about 5 minutes worth of simple work. You may want to keep the cat, as most smaller engines get raspy when you remove it and your car's emissions are more like tear gas when it's gone. If you do remove it, replace it with an exhaust resonator (e.g. Magnaflow). That made mine sound a lot better. My resonator actually came off of said DSM.

[RobbieNelson]

Youmay want to go to somewhere like dsmtuners.com or evolutionm.net and look for free mods.

Not sure who you're talking to, but I live on evolutionm.net. None of this stuff is news to me.

No I don't have my intake "top" cut out... and you won't see me do it.

[ShortysTRM]

Yes I was talking to you, and sorry for suggesting something you already knew. Someone in an Evo at Payne had their airbox cut, so it was either you or the red one. If it was the red one, I'd say it may have worked...

[RobbieNelson]

If it was the red one, I'd say it may have worked...

Explain to me how getting air from inside the engine bay is better than getting it from the nose of the car.

You do know that John has many other mods right?

3" turboback, no cat
manual boost controller
AFC
Victoracers

Plus he's a hell of a driver. He ran a friggin Caprice ex-police car around Payne like you wouldn't believe.

[ShortysTRM]

The only real downside is that it's considerably hotter when sitting still. Other than that, it's a shorter path, cleaner air, and there are less restrictions. I doubt that if there is a power gain that it would be a lot, but what I said still stands. If he cut his airbox lid and has been as successful as he has, then maybe he knows something. I don't see how having an AFC, Boost Controller, exhaust, lots of experience, and times lower than the track record set the year before by the 911 (If I recall correctly, you were there for that, too, when your car was only a week old...?) would discredit any other mod that he would have. It seems like a primitive way to gain power, but apparently he did something right. I just thought that suggesting simple/free/DIY mods would be a nice gesture. I didn't want to start an argument.

Also, if it's the same ex-cruiser that I'm thinking of, that thing was wicked. I remember seeing it with the hood up with this huge intake and (I believe) headers, and it was so clean you could lick it...and it was actually tempting to do so.

[RobbieNelson]

If he cut his airbox lid and has been as successful as he has, then maybe he knows something. I don't see how having an AFC, Boost Controller, exhaust, lots of experience, and times lower than the track record set the year before by the 911 (If I recall correctly, you were there for that, too, when your car was only a week old...?) would discredit any other mod that he would have. It seems like a primitive way to gain power, but apparently he did something right.

With that logic, if he put on spinner 20" on the car and was still fast then the spinner must have helped make him faster.

The distance of intake that you "bypass" by cutting the lid is approximatly 10" of ducting that goes straight to the front of the car. It dosen't snake down the fender well or anything. I think the gains from a mod like that are about as good as my movFast.com banner. :D

[Feedman]

If he cut his airbox lid and has been as successful as he has, then maybe he knows something. I don't see how having an AFC, Boost Controller, exhaust, lots of experience, and times lower than the track record set the year before by the 911 (If I recall correctly, you were there for that, too, when your car was only a week old...?) would discredit any other mod that he would have. It seems like a primitive way to gain power, but apparently he did something right.

With that logic, if he put on spinner 20" on the car and was still fast then the spinner must have helped make him faster.

The distance of intake that you "bypass" by cutting the lid is approximatly 10" of ducting that goes straight to the front of the car. It dosen't snake down the fender well or anything. I think the gains from a mod like that are about as good as my movFast.com banner. :D

Ater I installed my custom movFast banner, I gained 7.3 whp. Dyno proven!!!! 8)

[Jay]

you stil have yet to top the 10hp gain from the APC sticker.. lemme know when you come out with a higher performance sticker tho ill wallpaper my car with them an run 9's


tho true, your car will run better getting fresh/colder air from outside of the car rather than under-hood, once you start moving that becomes so much less of a factor. depending on what kinda piping is used for the intake from factory it is possible shortening the distance and or using less restricting type of piping could be an improvement..

I have no idea how the setup is on the EVO tho, just see'ing how both sides really can be correct here..

[Davis Silver Sti]

Don't forget our cars get very very hot. I can only see taking fresh air from exterior would be better than hot air from within despite the shorter ram.
Unless its on a big V-8 or V-10, I have yet to see an air intake system deliver noticable power differences on 4 and 6 cyclinder cars. (noise yes, but real power?)

[ShortysTRM]

I think you gain response more than power. I do see your point Robbie, and I have seen the Evo ducting and it really wouldn't shorten it much at all, but my point was not that just because he has it, it adds power...my point was that if he can produce a reliable car that runs considerably faster than stock, and tune an AFC correctly, maybe he did it for a reason we haven't considered. I would imagine that someone who has put that much into their car would just buy another lid for his airbox if there was no advantage to having the modified box.

on another note, I saw a White Evo MR at the dealership in South Charleston today. $35,600. Nice.

Back on topic, have you read anything on NASIOC about reliability issues or anything with that Cobb stage 2? I doubt that there are any, as Cobb is quite well known...There may even be driveability advantages over the stock setup, like increased mpg's or a better powerband. I'm just curious if you have heard anything about them.

[ShortysTRM]

I just looked up Vishnu (http://www.vishnutuning.com), and they offer a Stage 1 that is similar to the Cobb Stage 2. It consists of a Vishnu 3" turbo-back and XEDE computer. I believe it is $2200, but I'm not sure what the gains would be in comparison to the Cobb.

*edit I just checked out http://www.Rallitek.com and they have everything you could ever want for an STi. Go there and look at some of their exhaust manifolds and stuff. It's like a candy store.

[Feedman]

On a turbo eqipped car, an "intake" doesn't offer any real noticeable gains anyway...despite where the air is ducted from, assuming its intercooled.

As far as they function, generally speaking they don't offer much of a performance on smaller displacement engines. 8)

[ShortysTRM]

As for those small gains, here's how I have been looking at it recently:
Let's use a 120 Hp 4 cyl and a 360 Hp 8 cyl.
If you gain 6 Hp on that 120 Hp engine, that is a 5% gain in Hp. The equivalent of that on a 360 Hp engine would be 18 Hp, but would not be as noticable/beneficial as 18 Hp on a smaller engine. Though the gains may be minimal, it's all relative to what you started with.

I have heard people argue the CAi vs WAI on turbo cars debate a lot, and usually the consensus is that if it's colder before the intercooler, it'll be colder after the intercooler. I would say that a less restrictive intake would help to reduce lag, but not drastically.

[Feedman]

As for those small gains, here's how I have been looking at it recently:
Let's use a 120 Hp 4 cyl and a 360 Hp 8 cyl.
If you gain 6 Hp on that 120 Hp engine, that is a 5% gain in Hp. The equivalent of that on a 360 Hp engine would be 18 Hp, but would not be as noticable/beneficial as 18 Hp on a smaller engine. Though the gains may be minimal, it's all relative to what you started with.

I have heard people argue the CAi vs WAI on turbo cars debate a lot, and usually the consensus is that if it's colder before the intercooler, it'll be colder after the intercooler. I would say that a less restrictive intake would help to reduce lag, but not drastically.

Thats the key right there.... 8)